I know Orbiting doesn't believe any of this, but I was pointing out the problem with his comment in that regard. Like the Jaredite barges, it would have been peaked on both ends. The ends of the barge are peaked, as described in Ether 2:17, and the holes in the top and bottom are present. Microscopic Tunnel Vision: BOM Critics and DNA. I mean, do you know how much methane is produced by cows? When the sons of Mosiah left on their mission to the Lamanites, it caused a succession crisis for Mosiah (Mosiah 28:1–10). Found in Honduras. It could be that Joseph Smith was telling the truth about the gold plates all along, yet was mistaken in thinking they contained history rather than fiction. Yes, the language would have gone through a couple of translations, but it's hard to see how that would account for specific quotes that put some pretty silly words in the mouth of an actual shipbuilder who has already built several barges.Also, Jeff, I of course agree with you that myth and fiction can be grounded in history. Found in Wisconsin USA. Ether 6:7 says that the Jaredite barges "were tight like unto the ark of Noah." Getting slightly more serious, the challenges in the Jaredite description of the their barges are similar to the challenges in the description of Noah's ark. But if it did happen, it would likely have been described quite differently. Both Noah’s ark and the Jaredite barges were revolutionary in that they had sealed decks. A related challenge is that only a fraction of Mesoamerican sites have been excavated, with far less progress that there has been in Bible lands. Somewhere between these two designs, no doubt, the Jaredite barges found their way across the ocean (Great Deep) Thus, these barges were far from what most writers envision and try to describe, with a deck and some time of entrance onto that deck. Nibley's analysis, however, relied in part on a questionable reading of a phrase in the Jaredite record … It doesn't change the fact that Natty Bumppo and Duncan Heyward never really existed.Ditto for the Bible. Could it have been in barges that were able to withstand intense waves? I mean, think about the climate. But this is where things get interesting. Think about all those people and animals generating all that body heat. And what was it doing in Lake Michigan anyway?[2]. Sadly, many missionaries don't know how to cook much of anything, and what they do cook is often bland. They lived almost exclusively in North America for exactly thirty-two generations, after which time they annihilated themselves, all but two men, in a civil war, in about 600 B.C. Scripture Stories Coloring Book: Book of Mormon scriptures Book of Mormon. Their route is unknown. There's no independent evidence of the historical existence of any of its New World settings, peoples, or individual characters.This difference is just one of many reasons nonbelievers like me conclude the BoM is the product, not of an actual ancient culture and history, but of an 18th-century author.Note that, while there's no disagreement about whether the Bible is an ancient text, there's still plenty of disagreement about whether it's fictional.The BoM is different insofar as we disagree over both questions: whether it's ancient and whether it's fiction.Non-Mormons, of course, say that the BoM is not ancient and is fictional.It would be nice if I could set up a nice 2x2 grid here, with Ancient-Not Ancient along one axis, and Fictional-Not Fictional along the other. for scho... ca. So a little cross-circulation was often needed--but they would encounter a lot of waves along the way and had to be judicious in opening the ports. The critics are saying that the account of the building of the ship simply does not seem grounded, even remotely, in the reality of shipbuilding. Great article, Jeff. We really don't know, of course--but the brief text could accommodate a lot of missing details that could make the journey "tidier." Discussions of Book of Mormon issues and evidences, plus other topics related to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Jaredite origin in the Old World probably dates to the third Millennium B.C., which due to the scarcity of historical material presents obstacles to the use of comparative literature or archaeology. The Book of Mormon Jared has the same name as the biblical patriarch Jared (Hebrew: יֶרֶד ‎ Yéreḏ, in pausa יָרֶד ‎ Yā́reḏ, "to descend"), in the Book of Genesis, who was the sixth in the ten pre-flood generations between Adam and Noah; he was the son of Mahalaleel and the father of Enoch, and lived 962 years (Genesis 5:18). The Lord caused the wind to blow the Jaredites’ barges to the promised land. Most every writer needs a good editor, inexperienced writers especially.Nice try, Jeff, but as any number of critics have thoroughly demonstrated, the whole barge story is implausible on its face. If Only 10% of Anti Charges Are True . Looking into this more deeply, there are some surprising ancient connections between the Jaredite barges and Noah's ark suggesting that the description is rooted in antiquity, whatever may be lacking in helpful scientific details. Needless to say, the fine steel "runcible spoon" should be "runcible sword" and belonged to Laban, as one can see from exploring the Hebrew roots of runcible with some subtle consonant shifts. On Twitter, follow me as: Mormanity (Religious) vaccination. Seems a lot simpler to read the Book of Mormon as a Christian-American myth. The suffering for air might have referred to odor more than oxygen depletion. Because they were unable to have windows, the Lord provided sixteen white stones that … QED. Jeff, concerning the Jaredite voyage, sure, it could have happened. Jaredite Barges. MYTH: Jaredite Barge found in Lake Michigan, On January 25, 1999, some members of the Mormon community became prematurely excited when a large, wooden, boat-like object was discovered at the bottom of Lake Michigan. Even animals, as any mariner has found who has ever accompanied beasts on voyages, eventually get somewhat accustomed to such movement. Moses 7:62. Now that we understand what moved the Jaredite barges, we need to look for a sea route where such wave and wind action could move such barges on drift voyages across the sea from the Old World to the Western Hemisphere. It could be that the Jaredits and Nephites, like the ancient Israelites, used myth and story to convey truth. I don't think so. Those who have strapped on air tanks and visited the thing say the craftsmanship used to build it is remarkable--four-inch-thick oak boards bent and fitted together and caulked watertight, like nothing built today.A CNN article described the boat-like object as “an oak construction the size of a bus and shaped like a zeppelin.”[1], Excited by the discovery, many LDS readers were quick to suspend logic and identify the object as a "Jaredite barge" and myth-creating messages were circulated wildly around the Internet claiming that proof of the Book of Mormon had been discovered, and in our own backyard!During the fervor following the discovery, some of the more skeptical readers began to ask how a wooden barge would have survived at the bottom of a lake for more than 3,000 years. The fundamentalist-literalist idea that myth and other forms of fiction is somehow not up to these tasks is a very strange one.Similarly, proof of the BoM's antiquity would not in itself allow us to choose between (1) and (2) above. There's only fraud/delusion = fiction, or truth = historicity. Wow! Or maybe it was as brutal and long as it seems. Seems to me it should be the reverse. In Ether 2:20 it says "And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and also in the bottom; and when thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive air. So why insist on reading a supposedly ancient text as if it were an instance of this modern, new-fangled, liberal thing called "history"? That doesn't mean it didn't happen. Just take a look at Shades' webpage on the Book of Mormon. Pres Nelson noted the importance of Reading these verses, it seems apparent that the Lord most likely answered the steering question and that our record is just a little vague. The Chicago Tribune published the following description:If one set out with the preposterous goal of making an oak zeppelin 31 feet long, 10 feet in diameter, pointed at its ends, complete with an 18-inch hatch to crawl inside, this is pretty much what they'd get. Intended humor aside, he captured the essence of apologetics and ridiculed it better than almost anybody else. Jaredite ships Parent page: Book of Mormon/Book of Ether Book of Ether has parallels to Ugaritic flood text elements not found in the Bible What we wish to point out here is that there are various versions of the Flood story floating about, all of which … Parallels with the ancient Near East can only be described in general forms, and no artifacts or writings identifiable as Jaredite have ever been found outside the Book of Mormon. down out of heaven." As in the Bible, there may be multiple accounts and sources patched together, multiple traditions brought together or providing competing details, but why does that mean there wasn't an actual event that was behind the myths? … Why Did Moroni Quote Malachi about Elijah’s Coming? Later depictions on the walls of Khorsabad and Nineveh show horse-headed ships dragging cedar logs, round-hulled merchant ships, and warships with long, pointed prows. Anonymous, I'm not sure what you mean about rejecting what Moroni said. And somebody muck the stables already!This would have at least made a little bit of sense:And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and also in the bottom; and thou shalt leave the upper hole unstopped, lest ye suffer for air. Before we start, let's squash the claim that the Jaredite story was a myth in an otherwise historical Book of Mormon. However the shape of their ships where quite different. A Beautiful Ukrainian Perspective: How Can I Be Us... Halvor and Hannah Ronning: Inspiring Missionaries ... Where Thieves Break Through and Steal: Your Bank A... Jaredite Barges: Clearing the Air (with the Help o... Clement of Alexandria, Temple Mysteries, and the D... Come Follow Me Week 4: Doctrine and Covenants 3–5. The story of the Jaredites leaving the Tower of Babel and sailing to a new land was created for my son. Artwork of actual sea-going vessels … Copyright Jeff Lindsay. Download. Need not be cows. the Doctrine and Covenants. According to the Book of Mormon, they fled across the ocean on unique barges and established an ancient civilization in America. Dr. Hugh Nibley shares some of the oddities with us. This prophecy was repeated ca. 530 BC [10] The story of Noah and the flood would have been relatively recent history for the Jaredites, who had departed from the, “great tower, at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people” ( Ether 1:33 ). Small - (320x237px, 134.1KB) Medium - (800x591px, … This was before widespread railways in the United States so … Why is the Church so committed to literalism as the proper way of reading its scriptures? Since they were light and floated like a fowl on the water (Ether 2:16), a portion of the bottom section could have been above the water line. I usually focus on the ceremonial ties between the Israelites the Hopi and those found in Mesoamerica or the possible lands of the Book of Mormon. Just think of James Fenimore Cooper's Last of the Mohicans. Dr. Hugh Nibley has shown that several of these non-biblical details and oddities are also found in the Jaredite account. Many questions unanswered, but the basic concept is not impossible. To learn how the barges … Because the story of Noah's Ark or the equivalent is found so commonly in ancient literature it could have easily been known to the Jaredites. Until these wrecks were found, the only evidence of Phoenician ships was from depictions in art:"Contemporary representations of Phoenicians in Assyrian art depict a variety of Phoenician vessels. The art for the Jaredite barges seems primarily based upon traditional (non-Mormon) art for Noah’s ark. The Jaredites are one of four peoples that the Latter-day Saints believe settled in ancient America. Fernando Alva Ixtlilxochitl relates that the ancestral Indians (who I believe were the Jaredites) "came to these parts [Mexico], having first crossed large lands and seas, living in caves and undergoing great hardships, until they came to this land, which they found good and fertile for their habitation. There's more disingenuousness on the critical side than on the apologetic side. Lucy Mack Smith Episode 34. Jerome’s barge would also be … These animals embark on a transoceanic voyage, readily explaining the origins of pre-Columbian New World horses and possibly cureloms. Del Parson Painting Accurate Depiction of Jesus Christ, Scriptures Saved Mormon Soldier from Bullets, Steven Young Permission to Play on Sunday, Elder Nelson's Neighbor Translated Book of Mormon and Converts, Japanese Missionary Converts Japanese Family in South America, American Combat Unit - Modern Strippling Warriors, Joseph Smith Died as a Lamb to the Slaughter. Exactly When Do Saved Christians Lose Their Souls? [Page 93] Thus the Jaredite record describes three different types of sacred stones which had divine functions: the sixteen stones that the brother of Jared asked the Lord to touch with his finger to give light to the Jaredite barges, 22 the two stones that the Lord gave to the brother of Jared on the mount (the “interpreters” or “directors”), 23 and the seer stone of … I love you, tomorrow, you're only a day away.Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,To the last syllable of recorded time....Just you wait, Henry Higgins, just you wait! A painting by Robert T. Barrett depicting the Jaredite barges; Primary manual 1-69; Primary manual 4-53. But certainly bringing animals or humans along involves waste disposal and odor issues. I'm thinking of Ether 2:20:And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and also in the bottom; and when thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive air. By "myth," of course, I mean not a falsehood, but a narrative that conveys certain fundamental beliefs and values.Also, wouldn't it make sense for the Jaredite mariners to keep the upper ventilator port open whenever possible, and close it only when necessary? No middle ground except for garrulous sophists. Monday, January 27, 2014. More than one critic has found amusement in ridiculing the Jaredite barges-or “submarines,” as some critics chide. Or am I too hopeful?As for specific New World locations, an importance difference relative to the Bible is that in the New World we don't have recorded Mesoamerican place names for well-known places that have persisted for millennia. With his comment in that regard of Book of Mormon been constructed, the North current! Is much greater than you let on quite differently one of the design not an challenge. Intended humor aside, he captured the essence of apologetics and ridiculed it better than anybody. 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